Utah is a strange place. And since the Pligs are making such great news and causing such controversy and consternation amongst the various cable news personalities, I thought this might be a good time to weight in with my unique perspective. I get to call my perspective unique because I actually have some first hand knowledge of some real Pligs.
Remember April? Not the month, but the youngest child of a Plig family here in Zion. Trying to sort out the history of polygamist families is damn near impossible—everyone is related to everyone else, when you start looking into their past histories—so I’ll just stick to the current history of the members of this particular family. And “I know” means, have met, sat around a diner table with, and (in some cases) have been and (in some cases) am still friends with. If you think that last sentence is confusing and convoluted, you don’t know a Plig family or have Plig friends.
But before we get to April’s family, I’d like to go on record as being in favor of having all the 400 plus children from the Texas compound who have been placed in protective custody, kept in protective custody. None of those kid’s, if released back into their “families” custody, is going to be safe. Children serve several purposes in Plig society—they are potential breeders (that means when the girls start menstruating they are ready to be married off to some old coot with several other wives—since I started my period at eleven, if I had been a Plig child, I could have been married and cranking out babies at eleven). The boys and the girls not of breeding age are child laborers. They clean the houses, prepare the food, work in the fields, etc. Once boys get to the age when they are interested in girls and such, they are mostly expelled from the colony. These are called the Lost Boys. Salt Lake has lots of Lost Boys.
Now, if you have been watching any of the news coverage of this “situation” you might have seen the “mothers” pleading for the return of their children. “We love our children,” is the answer to any and all questions regarding the safety of these children. When pressed about the age at which it is appropriate for these children to start breeding, the “mothers” change the subject back to “We love our children.” And have you noticed the lack of affect in these “mothers?” They all look lobotomized to me.
I was going to tell you more of April's families history, but I’ve run out of steam. I was going to clean my house today, but that too shall have to wait. This fibrillation thingy is exhausting.
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I haven't watched too much of this on tv because I've been so busy. I saw the interview with Larry King, and you're right, they all seem as if they are under some mind control. Some of the older women are quite scary.
I had heard from somebody that one of the reports said that while one of the children were in the bedroom "being bred" (raped) for the first time, the mother actually sat in a chair outside the door to keep her from coming out. If this is true, it just turns my stomach. The thought of what these young children have been subjected to. I can't fathom how I could sit outside the door while my daughter was being controlled and raped.
Oh Mary Ellen, stick with me, I have tales to tell. I know way too much. And as for how old those women look? By the time a woman is twenty in a Plig family she looks thirty five or forty. Poping out babies from twelve to twenty is exhausting. Or so I've heard.
what the heck is the purpose of popping out babies when god, the creator, shepherds all humans.
In other words, is screwing and rape creative - is that what is "gods" will?
My lord, there must be a better excuse for incest than religion.
Fucking horny - maybe ...?
Yeah, I watched Larry King for a few minutes with these muthers. I wasn't too impressed with his soft balls. (What else does he pitch.) But I was also not too empathic or sympathetic with these lumpen women. Others might disagree. Wizard takes a different approach on his blog, here and here.
Please tell us more. I tensed at the same part you did, where the answer to any question of abuse or neglect is "I love my children." Horsesh*t. Love isn't something you feel; it's something you do, and letting some old guy rape your 11 year old in the name of any deity is not love. Aaargh. I get so mad....
Utah Savage, Thanks for your first hand knowledge and your insight (and your kind invitation to drop by and join in the discusson).
[I'm not about to go accusing vigilante of blogging polygamy.... but he is like the great blooging honey bee..... flying from blog to blog, cross-pollenating the Internet and helping it bloom]
I fully appreciate the many, many evils of any closed, fundamentalist religious sect. The powerful build upon the weak. They hold tight to the keys to the gates of heaven. Cross the word of the leader and you cross the lord and suffer eternal damnation
But we are and must remain a free, pluralistic, open society. The use of brute govermental force against any group should be used with great restraint, and only with legislative and judicial due process.
What has happened here is EXACTLY ANALOGIOUS to the US INVASION and OCCUPATION of Iraq. Just as Bush invaded a soverign country for something he thought they might do in the future, in search of some weapons he thought they might have, the State of Texas invaded and took custody of hundreds of children without any tangible evidence of wrongdoing. And they did it without evidence, based instead on a series of phone calls they never even fully investigaged.
Our concern should be what happens next. Do we take all children away from all Islamic familties, because each year right here in the United States hundreds, probably thousands, of toung teens (as young as 12 or 13) are forcably shipped back to Pakistan into prearranged marriage with older men (and often into marriages with multiple wives). Let's just have CPS protect them all.
And after we've cleaned up this damnable Islamic marriage mess, perhaps we go ahead and remove all children from Orthodox (and especially Hasidic) Jewish families, becuase those young girls are occasionally forced into pre-arranged marriage to older men.
Utah Savage, I think every one of the examples I've discussed above is wrong.... horribly wrong. I am in the very vangard of Women's rights. No girl should ever be forced into any lifestyle or situation not of her chosing.
But do we really want the govenment to make wholesale removal of children from situations you and I might find disgusting the new law of the land?
Then let's remove every child from a gay or lesbian home. After all, a "majority" of American's think homosexuality is wrong.
As for me, I want to start by removing evry child from every poverty ridden inner city in America. I know some of those girls will be raped or forced into protitution, tortured and even murdered. I know this for a fact. There is no question at all. It's on the front page of every newpaper in America every single day.
Those chldren really do need our protection.
The FLDS sect members were chosen because they are visible, tiny, weak and unable to resist.
Since we can't (or won't) do anything about the poverty and dispair in the inner cities, let's just raid the FLDS compund.
Don't we all feel better now?
[Gosh.... You'll probably never invite me back here again]
Happy to be a service here, Wizard. As your outrageous post here shows, you really ought to get out more and mix it up with real people. You and Obama spend too much time obsessing over arugula. BTW, what is "arugula"?
Wizard, I appreciate your concern for protecting the rights of others, but polygamy has been illegal in this country for, what? at least a hundred years. In every state the practice is illegal. So the state does have a legal leg to stand on there, then there's the question of child abuse. As far as I know it's illegal to have sex with children under a certain age. This might vary from state to state, but in most cases what is happening with the Pligs is pedophilia. I could to on and on, but this is a pretty good start.
Bringing up gay marriage or gays adopting children is specious. A straw man kind of argument. I'm kind of opposed to any religion that forces children into marriages with old men. I don't want to go to war to prevent it from happening to a girl in Saudi Arabia. But I do want our laws that protect children enforced here in the US S bring it on. I could argue this on till the cows come home.
I don't feel better, Wizzy, and I don't really think you expected me to.
What has happened here is EXACTLY ANALOGIOUS to the US INVASION and OCCUPATION of Iraq. Just as Bush invaded a soverign country for something he thought they might do in the future, in search of some weapons he thought they might have, the State of Texas invaded and took custody of hundreds of children without any tangible evidence of wrongdoing.
What a statement of unmitigated hyperbolic crap. Texas has duly constituted legal authority to enforce laws within its jurisdiction. What legitimacy did Bush provide Uncle Sam besides his Dick Cheney in his hand?
Boris, now we're talkin'.
Oh please Wizard, do come back. We'd like to argue with you. I hate to call someone as intelligent as you pompous and full of shit at your own place, but I have no qualms at all about doing it here at mine. So please do come back.
I appreciate all your comments... I really do.
And I agree with Utah.... the molestation of a child, any child, is an abomination. Anyone who ever rapes a child should be put away for Life....
I'm sorry you don't agree that Texas crossed a very dangerous line. I seriously fear such abuse of power could easily be directed at any other lifestyle they happen to dislike on any given day.
For fear that a very few teens (appearantly just a half dozen it turns out) might be at risk, 416 boys and girls and infants have been thrown into a foster system already well known for it's poor management and neglectful care of children.
Perhaps we did pull these kids out of the caldron, but we threw them into the fire.
Don't you think there was a beter way to handle this investigation? I certainly do.
I haven't blogged on the subject, because I know very little and know I don't know very much. I am concerned for the children's well being, but distrustful of government.
Utah, your own experience has more weight with me that what I've heard on the MSM.
Talking about the states abuse of power without talking about the patriarch abuse of power is to ignore the elephant in the room. What is going on in these polygamist "families" is abuse of power and child abuse. I have my own personal story of child abuse that I am doling out bit by bit, but it is nothing compared to the abuse these children are suffering on so many levels. They are used as child labor. They are considered property, they have no rights to protection under the rules that govern their peculiar family structure. The are chattel. If a fifteen year old girl has a one year old child, at what age was she impregnated? This question is for you Wizard. Keep arguing for the rights of this weird sects quaint practices and we may have to demote you from Wizard to Wizened.
Utah, I appreciate how very personal this is for you. I appreciate your personal bravery.
Unfortunately this situation grows more tragic by the second........
Ah yes, it is indeed a tragedy. One from whose face we looked away for so long. Well now let's take a long honest look. Let's not stand above the realities and talk about the states abuse of power. It's about damn time the state got involved. Where have the been till now I wonder? This compound is a small city. These people are locked in this town and strangers kept out. How could you be law enforcement in such a county and not worry a bit about what's going on over there? Anyone with a computer and a little curiosity could have learned a good deal about this little fortressed towns founder/prophet/king/god, could have done a bit of research and known enough to know it wasn't legal or safe for those children. Warren Jeffs was on the FBI's list of most wanted for a long time. My question is not, why now. My question is, what took you so long?
Utah, You posted over on Vigil you feared you had driven me off... actually there is no chance of that.
But, on this one issue you and I do not fully agree.
I feel I've made my point as fully and clearly as I possibly can. I don't want to become boring or repetitive.
I'll continue to read your blog daily and comment when I have something meaningful to add.
While we may disagree, I feel your points have great value, so I've asked my readers to visit your blog and read your entry and all comments from your readers.
I've included a link to your blog in my latest post.
Zee, it's that old biblical, "Be fruitful and multiply" adage. To me, wizard, this situation seems like women are involuntarily jailed and, as a result, are suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome.
As far as Middle Eastern girls in pre-arranged marriages, these were often the same girls who endured female castration, which is against U.S. law. How do we impose our regulations on a cultural ritual thousands of years old? Yes, of course I think it's barbaric, but this is a small sample of the abuse women have suffered for centuries.
I don't have the answer, but you bring up a lot of good points, wizard. However, time after time, women and girls endure terrible abuse in a polygamous environment. I don't know if CPS is the right idea: I do know that Bush et al., in his reckless disregard for human suffering, has slashed the budget for programs such as CPS. You're right. That's a huge problem. If we had an administration that gave a damn about the people it governs, perhaps it wouldn't be as traumatic for those poor children.
These women do look old beyond their years and without affect. The children in these cults are more often than not victims of child abuse. If polygamy is illegal in this country and the Texas authorities knew this situation was going on, then I imagine they did the right thing by breaking up a polygamous cult. Polygamy is outlawed? I'm not sure about polyandry. =)
Private freedoms are not guaranteed in the constitution, but certainly are an accepted part of our society. I agree with boris. These cults are dangerous to women and young girls. Hell, if I'd had the nerve and the time, I'd have half a mind to go help.
Frankly, the entire issue gives me the creeps. The common thread for me is Waco, and I'm grateful no one was killed in the process.
As the great blogging honey bee, I asked my blog rhetorician Adynaton to comment on friend Wizard's analogy comparing Bush's invasion of Iraq to Texas' polygamy-gate. Very few events come close to this current 21st Century abomination which know as Iraquagmire. For a good analogy, one usually has to revert to the 20th Century where unprovoked invasions were common. Adynaton took a moment to pronounce on Wizard's hyperbole, which can be found by following this link.
Wizard, for that matter, I comment on Waco, this morning.
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