Monday, November 24, 2008

The Mormons and Proposition 8

The Washington Post is reporting on the Mormon Church's support for Proposition 8. Don't forget about this violation of The Constitution. And that this is a very rich Church with a very small central governing group, ruled by one wise old "white man" chosen by god, and his twelve apostles or elders, all of whom are also white men. Did I say rich white men? I should have.

Women with ambition in the Mormon Church are relegated to The Relief Society. Men rule, women serve. And everybody in the church pays tithing. So come all ye saints is a way to enrich the church. If you are poor and live in a country where you are oppressed or have very little chance for improving your situation and the nicely dress duo of clean cut, sweet faced, well behaved, young men knock on the door of your hovel offering not only eternal salvation, but the possibility of immigration to the US of A, what would you do? Utah has very few restrictions for immigration. Utah will expedite the visas for converts. And once here they will help you find housing, a job, and the tight embrace of the church.

Mormons also run "charities" where we donate, and they sell. And in these hard times, they just raised their prices for the stuff they get for free but sell back to us. They own vast swaths of downtown real estate. They build enormous Temples all over the world, and send out an army of young men (only recently have they allowed young women to join in the conversion brigade). Please pay attention to what this fundamentalist, right wing, wealthy, and well connected Church is doing. This is a church with great organizational skills. They are the only financial backing Mitt Romney would need to finance his next bid for the presidency. They run Utah and are making inroads in the national government.

D.K. Raed said...

"They run Utah" ... and most of Idaho, a heckova lot of Nevada, northern Arizona, and western Colorado -- all part of the original "Deseret Territory".

Thanks for putting this up UT. As I shopped in Costco today, surrounded by polyg women, I always wonder why they are so eager to obey. The Relief Society -- don't get me started, it's a relief to not be a part of that zombiette society. It's enough to make me swerve the car a little too close to the curb as I pass those clean-cut white-shirted young men bicylcing around town.

People think they are so nice & mannerly, but I live near Mountain Meadows Massacre, so I can never forget they are capable of extreme violence, if so ordered by that "old white prophet guy".

20 comments:

simstone said...

Since you are so close by why don't you volunteer your time and write a blog for the Mormon Church. I am sure they would be eternally grateful.

(I am really, really smiling right now.)

Kulkuri said...

It will be interesting to see if the churches that are involved in politics will be looked by the IRS. While the Repukes have been running things, the only ones getting visits from the IRS have been the few that leaned Dem. The problem with this country is that everyone sees shit happening and also see that there is no retribution. Why worry about breaking the law when nobody gets nailed for breaking the law??

Utah Savage said...

Simstone, you are wicked.

Kulkuri, Yes, when are we going to start enforcing the law? What will it take to make it clear the we the people would like to see the laws, especially the laws so clearly spelled out in the constitution, enforced?

Stella said...

Utah, there's an old saying: "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." Think what you could accomplish writing an accurate "goings on" of the Mormon Church.

Kulkuri is right. No churches, liberal or conservative, have the right to participate in politics. It's unconstitutional, and they should have their tax-exempt status revoked immediately.

I agree: there are no punitive fines for churches engaged in politics. Please don't get me started about Prop 8.

Were the teabags too much?

Utah Savage said...

No the "teabags" were perfect. I can't count the times I've shit-canned that old farts comments. But he comes back and rants at me some more and then he says "I know you're just going to delete my comments, but... " And I'm not one to disappoint, so yes, I once again shit-can his comments.

Stella said...

I just emailed you asking about my comment—guess I'm in excellent company. Drop me a line when you can. I'd love to hear from you.

We need to plan our trip to the Algonquin...

Randal Graves said...

Sadly, the average yokel only know the Tabernacle Choir when someone says Mormon.

Utah Savage said...

We of the non-Mormon faith call it the
"Moron Tab and Apple Choir."

Anonymous said...

The Los Angeles Times [http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/11/why-did-blacks.html] blames the Black Vote, in particular, the UCC Church. According to the Times,The exit poll didn't ask voters why they voted the way they did. But Madison Shockley, pastor of Pilgrim United Church of Christ in Carlsbad and among the roughly one-third of blacks who opposed Proposition 8, said the vote was understandable. "Black folks go to church, probably more than the Caucasian population, and the churches they go to tend to be very traditional."

The Mormons aren't the only ones worthy of blame for Prop 8's success, nor are they the most prominant.

Why are Black Churches unwilling to share the Civil Rights?

Red Rasputin

D.K. Raed said...

"They run Utah" ... and most of Idaho, a heckova lot of Nevada, northern Arizona, and western Colorado -- all part of the original "Deseret Territory".

Thanks for putting this up UT. As I shopped in Costco today, surrounded by polyg women, I always wonder why they are so eager to obey. The Relief Society -- don't get me started, it's a relief to not be a part of that zombiette society. It's enough to make me swerve the car a little too close to the curb as I pass those clean-cut white-shirted young men bicylcing around town.

People think they are so nice & mannerly, but I live near Mountain Meadows Massacre, so I can never forget they are capable of extreme violence, if so ordered by that "old white prophet guy".

Utah Savage said...

Why is it that those on the right are so opposed to posting their comments with a name and a site to track back to. Anonymous, I would love to see your blog. I would welcome the opportunity to come comment on you posts. But if you or any other right of center commenter ever leaves a comment on my site anonymously, I will delete it. This practice of commenting anonymously is so cowardly. If you were a blogger with the courage to comment with your name linked to your comment I would take your comment seriously and answer it with a serious rebuttal. Alas this is not the case. So...

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Why do assume that that blogger was on the "right"? He/she sounded more like a free-thinker to me. I especially like the way that he/she recognizes that there is always more than one causal factor involved in complex social events. Seriously, though, I'm beginning to think that people are starting to see left and right in the Cheerios.

Stella said...

Utah, he left his pseudonym, at least. So, I'm on serious rebuttal mode. Red, let a native Californian school ya, even though a Red Rasputin is a cocktail.

Proposition 8 was purposely written in a deceptive manner, especially in the initial draft. Many people thought if they voted Yes on 8, they supported same-sex marriage. The ads were utter prevarication.

The original ballot language read: "[Prop 8] Amends the California Constitution to provide that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

The election official's change, however, gives the legislation a more straightforward read:

"[Prop 8] Changes California Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry. Provides that only a marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California. Fiscal Impact: Over the next few years, potential revenue loss, mainly sales taxes, totaling in the several tens of millions of dollars, to state and local governments. In the long run, likely little fiscal impact to state and local governments."

Red, note the convoluted language. The only fiscal impact is that companies and the government that insures heterosexual families would be required to insure same-sex families. Where this "tens of millions" came in, I do not know, especially when the end of the proposition states "likely little fiscal impact." Huh?

"The Proposition 8 ballot was created in opposition to amend the constitution and overturn the 2000 Proposition 22. Prop 22 was an initiative to prevent same-sex marriages from being recognized by the State of California. The measure was defeated by a wide margin of 61.4% to 38.6%. Oppositionists tried to fight this decision in the California Supreme Court and the decision was upheld in May 15, 2008 and same-sex marriages were finally allowed in California."

Your logic is flawed, Red. I find the comment you selected bordering on bigotry. Your quote is from one minister at one church: hardly a consensus on African-American voters.

Please take your question back to the Mormon Church and the Knights of Columbus who violate separation of church and state. These organizations, along with right-wing Christian fundamentalists, such as the Christian Coalition, poured millions of dollars into passing this proposition—most of these organizations are not in California and don't belong in our politics.

Furthermore, , "Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said Sunday he will not join legislative Democrats in a court fight against Proposition 8 despite his opposition to the same-sex marriage ban, but he believes the courts ultimately should and will allow such marriages in California.".

Sadly, Attorney General Jerry Brown, has his hands tied to defend the laws of the State of California. He has stated he wants to ensure that same-sex marriages that occurred between May 15 and November 3. But, that's another story.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

I think the only point that red was making is that a lot of Black churches are often very conservative when it come to social issues. A lot of the parishoners from these churches may not have been very sympathetic to gay marriage. I don't think he/she was generalizing to the African American population, in general.

Utah Savage said...

Stella, I'm now going to lift your comment and post it. I hope I've got those links right. If not come nudge me. My linkitude is not always perfect.

Utah Savage said...

James, this Red whatever is so far off base here. When I write a piece about the black church's homophobia, I will welcome this comment, however it seems off topic in a slightly racist tipping into Faux "News" territory, but I am extremely sensitive to this kind of needling. I'm addressing the issue of the separation of Church and State. I don't really believe that the black churches mounted this kind of campaign that supported revoking the civil rights of a class of citizens. Read Stella's piece more carefully taking the time to check out the links. In the meantime, Red, write a piece about the black church's opposition to Prop 8. Let's compare notes.

Stella said...

Will: Yes, but to quote one pastor from one church? I'm well aware that the alleged percentage was 70% of African-Americans voted Yes on 8, but there's far more to the story, such as little outreach by No on 8 proponents in the African-American community.

Read Mythbusting the African American Vote and Prop 8.

“Dr. Fernando Guerra of Loyola's Levy Center for the Study of Los Angeles did a far more extensive poll than CNN and found that the 70% figure was way too high. The figure is closer to 57% (still not acceptable) but a long way from the 70%. Other models that I have been running in an attempt to get the facts and not the emotions show the latter a more likely figure... Prop 8's passage revealed that the marriage equality movement has a lot of outreach to do in this state - to older voters, voters living in "red California," to some Latinos and African Americans but also to numerous white voters (if whites had voted strongly No, this discussion would be moot), to Asian and Pacific Islanders, to some religious groups, including LDS Californians.

The Huffington Post writers know define the issues.

Blaming the African American Community Oversimplifies Prop 8 Results

As a supporter of same-gender marriage, I am saddened that Prop.8 passed. I am also saddened that the best we can do is blame a group that comprises no more than 10 percent of the electorate for its passing.

Red oversimplified the issue. However, Will, I, too think that people are starting to see left and right in the Cheerios.

Stella said...

"[Mormons] have crossed the line between church and state... reclassify this "church" as the political action committee that it is, and therefore make it ineligible for tax exempt status! They intend the complete overthrow of the us government. they intend to destroy civil liberties and institute Taliban like polygamy and child marriage. They hate our country, and want to destroy its constitution. This they do while paying not one cent for the firemen the police the teachers the roads the parks, the hospitals. they build their own infrastructure with your tax money.

~~Roseanne

D.K. Raed said...

Stella, I would agree w/Roseanne if she included all religion. But that's me. She's got a point about UT being a theocracy, and I think that inspires many other denominations to give it a try in our current age. No good can come of that, as we've seen around the world. I hate being stuck in a medieval mindset.

Hey UT, I saw you promoted my comment to an appendage! Someday I'm going to do a Mountain Meadow post, if everyone's not sick of it already. The mormons here got away with wholesale murder, literally. There is real potential for violence in all religion, but here it was only 150-yrs ago.

Utah Savage said...

My mother was a collector of anti-Mormon literature. My first paper for any class as my last year of grade school. And I wrote a paper on The Mountain Meadows Massacre. My history teacher gave me the highest grad in the class and asked me to read my paper. I did. And he got fired. They couldn't kick me out, because my grades were good and I hadn't done anything really naughty since selling the secret story on how babies were born for a nickel. As I've said before, it was my pickle money from the little store across the street from school. Which, if memory serves, Anita thought was very phallic and funny. I got in big trouble for that. Having made a couple of kids cry with the horror of it all. My mother had to come in for a conference and after we left, she told me she thought I was very enterprising. To bad I didn't hang on to that entrepreneurial spirit.