Saturday, November 8, 2008

Ghost Dansing Left This Comment in Response to This

(Original post is linkied to Title)
Blogger Ghost Dansing said...

the arrogance of humans to think Caesar decides what is bound together in heaven and on earth.......

perhaps there is insufficient Church-State separation in the first place..... let the Churches marry, and the State takes license fees to establish civil unions for legal purposes for all its citizens.....

why should the State recognize the action of any Church? why should the State perform any function in lieu of a Church..... like marriage?

perhaps the State should deny corporate status to businesses involving gays? the Churches don't like gays, so perhaps the State should prevent them from having business licenses or forming corporations.....

are they not applying legal sanction to a social group because some Churches don't approve of them receiving the same equal rights under the Law?

what is marriage from the perspective of the State other than a contract between two people?

is the State recognizing a Religious sacrament? does a Church require the State to recognize a religious sacrament in order for it to be valid?

does God require a Church or the State to unite two people spiritually in heaven and on earth?

are there Churches that will marry gays?

if the State bestows on marriage a special legal status of contractual union, on what basis would that special status be denied a gay couple that was married in a Church.

or if the State insists upon performing Church ceremonies like marriage, to which Church's dogma will it comply?

perhaps the issue of Church-State separation is what truly needs to be examined here.


Sylvia K said...

And a big AMEN to that!

Utah Savage said...

I have some very smart and articulate commenters. If I were of the religious persuasion I too would say amen to that.

Mauigirl said...

So glad you posted Ghost Dansing's comment. It is the only thing that makes sense to make sure we have true equality in this country. The government should not be in the marriage business to begin with, and that's where the whole problem lies.

Utah Savage said...

I'm so pissed off at the intolerance of churches at the moment, I don't think they should be in the business of doing anything but helping the poor and the homeless. And they should damn well not set political governmental policy in any way. I want god out of everything and place but church and if you chose to go to church you can get your god fix there. Pray all you want, but pray for good things for all people. Do not pray to "fix" "the gays". Do not pray for destruction or harm to come to anyone. Give up the notion of enemies. Love thy neighbor and due unto as you would have done unto. And do not restrict anyone's freedoms ever in gods name.

katbo said...

Wouldn't the LDS church's activity for prop 8 be enough to be investigated for drawing a big bold line from itself to the state?

Utah Savage said...

Yes it would. The Mormons run Utah. The Mormons are only slightly less rich than the Catholics. That would be in the big C way. Mormons gather them in and take their money. They are the most aggressive proselytizers in the world. And 10 or 15% tithing is mandatory for every Mormon. The are major shareholders of corporations. Used to own the most successful department store in SLC history. Zions Mercantile Institute or ZCMI. Since they were locally owned they did all their advertising locally and were my biggest client when I was modeling.

I sure seem to want to rant lately. Victory isn't good enough. I want more. I want justice. I want real restraints on religions when it comes to profit-making ventures and using church money to finance political agendas. Feed the hungry, house the homeless, minister to the spirit that seeks your assistance, but stay the hell out of city state and federal government. Do not impose your beliefs on me. Do not try to stack the courts. Believe me, no one is ever going to force you to have an abortion. Just don't mess with anyone else's right to choose.

Ghost Dansing said...

in a somewhat related vein, since Utah was talking about bigotry, i've always found it ironic that the Black Protestant churches formed a grass roots for political action with the civil rights movement.

that was truly a Christianity inspired political movement for tolerance and justice for all citizens.

that movement was supported by Liberal White Christians, who just as in their earlier history formed the political movement to abolish slavery, advocated for civil rights.

interestingly, it has always been a sectarian cluster of white fundamentalists that were the ones to find justification in the Bible for slavery, justification in the Bible for segregation, and justification in the Bible for the persecution of any number of groups including Jews, Catholics and Gays based in Biblical interpretation.

ironically, we find this same sectarian cluster aligned with modern Republicanism today, ready to storm the voting booths at every possible opportunity to oppress their fellow citizens.

these people, and the Republican Party as a whole, have fundamental problems with the Liberal Democratic Republic established by the American Constitution.

i often make the argument that Church-State separation and Liberal governance itself are notions that sprang from Christian ideals. How better to love all God's children than to make it safe for them to pursue God in their own way..... by establishing Liberal governance that is blind to race and creed...... to establish that their should be no religious test associated with the pursuit of public office?

it is ironic that those who beat their chests and announce their Christianity the loudest are historically and modern times the most deficient in truly Christian attitudes.

it is ironic that the loudest among the Christian sects are those that most closely resemble the Pharisees that Jesus decried.

i would argue that Liberal political thought is the crowning achievement of Christian influence on society, and secular governance its hallmark.

thanks for sharing my thoughts Utah.

Utah Savage said...

Your thoughts are worth sharing. I may keep the one I just read for another post. This topic may end up being my rant and passion for the next long while. And you are kinder and more reasoned than I.

Scarlet W. Blue said...

I like when Ghost Dansing busts out with a comment. I mean, his video links are cool, but he's got a lot to say himself.

Utah Savage said...

What a thrill. Scarlet's here, let's have a party

Stella said...

Ghost Dansing, you are a wise man: what a brilliant observation. Your comment about Caesar amuses me. Not to offend, but the Christian Bible notes, Render that which is Caesar's unto Caesar, and render that which is God's unto God. I don't understand why certain churches find this notion unclear.

Or how about "Judge ye not, lest ye be judged"?

I so agree with you on this statement has always been a sectarian cluster of white fundamentalists that were the ones to find justification in the Bible for slavery... segregation, and... the persecution of any number of groups including Jews, Catholics and Gays based in Biblical interpretation. How ironic that the Bible teaches the greatest gift one can have is love.

Yes there are churches that will marry same-sex couples, although we could use more. Any church participating in politics should lose their tax-exempt status based on constitutional law.

I need to write to my Congressman.