Wednesday, July 9, 2008

Hillary's Debt is not Barack's to Pay

I'm one of the many small donors to Barack Obama. Yeah, even though I live well below the poverty level, if I had $10 at the end of the month, off it went to Yes that was me. I'm one of the millions of little donors who believed that the way to finance a campaign was through a grass roots organization. And boy, did it work! And now the party's over. Barack is our nominee, and Hillary lost. I didn't give her money for so many reasons, but one of them was that I didn't like the way she ran her campaign. I didn't like the people at the top of her campaign. I didn't want to pay their salaries. And I still don't. My feeling is that if she isn't going to pay my debt, why the hell should I pay hers? If she had not played brinksmanship at the end of her campaign, when we all knew she had no chance of getting the number of delegates to win, then the money she loaned herself is hers to pay. Mark Penn's salary is her debt. Any bloated lobbyist who was advising her, and is standing around waiting for me and all the rest of Obama's small donors to pony up and pay them, should take a look in the mirror. Mr. Penn, Mr Wolfson, Terry McAullif and all the rest of the morons advising her to say in it to the end, because she could still keep raising money, were giving her bad advise. They should be payed what their advise was worth--nothing.

To me, the negotiations to "retire" Hillary's debt is nothing more than a mugging. Yes, Senator Obama, I'll support you enthusiastically, if you pay my debt??? WTF! Not so fast. If you have millions to loan yourself to finance your failing candidacy, then you have no business asking anyone to pay you to campaign for them. Either you want a Democrat in the White House or you don't. If you don't, then stay home or vote for John McCain. Or is she saying, if you retire my debt, I'll be your Vice President? Not so fast on that one either. I don't want her in the White House again. I don't want Bill there either. That's one small reason I didn't donate money to her campaign in the first place. Yes, I do want to see a female President. I just didn't want our first female president to be the wife of Bill Clinton.


Stella by Starlight said...

Alas, Utah. After the FISA capitulation and his comment that "SOME women" can have late-term abortions, but he would not support such procedure based on "a woman's state of mind," I'm having my doubts and am far more interested in Michelle Obama, who seems like a strong individual.

Whatever my disagreement with some of Hillary's policies, I do know she's an avid supporter of the environment and women's issues. We will need that support in the years ahead.

Until I see how Obama behaves himself over the next month, I am unsure whether I can vote for a Democrat that is acting uncannily like Pelosi and Reid.

Take care, Utah.

Utah Savage said...

Before he can do anything about any of the issues we, as women, care about, he first has to get elected. That, alas, means taking to the center to reassure Independents and "centrist Republicans" to support him. He has to make himself less scary to "moderate voters" to get to the White House.

And as for Hillary, she was running as if she and McCain were on the same team and Barack was a mere child, not worth taking seriously. I support women, but am no big fan of arrogance and anyone who thinks the deserve to be President without winning the nomination. No more dynasties for me. Bush one and two made that seem like a horrible idea.

Stella by Starlight said...

Yes, concedo, Utah. As always, women take the back seat when it comes to health issues and equal pay for equal work during an election. By the way, did we ever pass ERA? Yeah, I thought not. Oh well, we fight on...

Obama's latest vacillation about late-term abortion completely supports what you are saying about women's rights taking a back seat. In addition, he is generating interest in the religious right, most of whom are anti-McCain. The major issue here is how much can we trust Obama? How far right is he willing to bend?

Obama is certainly religious—how religious remains to be seen. At, there is a quote by Bush about faith-based initiatives: "We want to fund programs that save Americans
one soul at a time." Obama made overtures that he wants to support and strengthen Bush's program.

What we have are violations of the First and Fourth Amendment. I don't want "Bush Light" in the White House. Accordingly, I've reconsidered my position about Hillary and think she may not be a bad choice given her support of women's rights, health care, and the environment. She does have a good record in those areas. Do I trust her? No. But neither do I trust Obama.

My major concern involves his capitulation about FISA: he backpedaled on his original stance. We need a president, and a Congress for that matter, who can stand strong against the right-wing, not back down to a president whose approval rating is 20%.

I'm saying I'm neither opposed nor support Clinton. There are areas where she might do some good. Nor do I disagree with you because this is an issue on which I am neutral. My primary concern lies with Obama's vacillation.

I'll tell ya, Utah dear, if I'd had my way, Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucnich would have been in the White House. And I don't want Hillary to be the first VP—I do want Barbara Boxer as the first female president.

I hope that makes sense. I'm at work (ooooo wicked me). I hope you're feeling well. Thanks for this post.

Stella by Starlight said...



Utah Savage said...

I know we're on the same side Stella, and maybe I wrote this in some measure to have a conversation with you. More on that later. But it's her debt being shifted to his supporters that galls me. Her mistakes as a candidate do not make her debt his supporters problem. She's rich, her husband's rich. If she were like the rest of us and made such bad decisions, she'd be taking a second job, mortgaging her house up to the hilt. Just saying. This crap doesn't play well with his grassroots supporters. Wo are working two jobs to pay their debts.

Stella by Starlight said...

Yes, of course, Utah! But remember that comment the Prevaricator in Chief made? You work three jobs? Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that. Bush speaking to a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005.

I imagine Obama will be less obtuse than that. Hillary is certainly privileged, and Obama has made more money in campaign funds than any other candidate. But I can't completely fault her voting record. That's important to me: how does someone vote when they're in office. Obama doesn't seem to care. (I love Project Vote Smart!)

Wish I had time to review the Sierra Club, but I do know Obama has a good rating with NARAL, so that's encouraging. So much research, so little time.

I think a chat is in order...

K McKiernan said...

Thing is... Obama's campaign is spearheading the payback. So, unless you are angry with his generosity????

You can't blame *her* here. Obama wants to help her. And, I think he should. Their battle made him MOUNTAINS of cash. Without her running against him, he never would have procured that amount.

Really, he should ask her to be VP and the debt gets swallowed in. I could go on for PAGES about why she should be VP... who knows, maybe she does not even want it. It would be very hard to work for someone less qualified than you and someone making so many mistakes already.

Obama needs to learn how to FIGHT. I said it months ago. She has fight. He just panders to the middle. As Stella said over on my site, he should not re-tread Kerry's mistakes.

If you want to see something really scary, go to this site:

I am not sure if it is for real or if it is a bunch of conservatives masquerading trying to sway democrats. This site will infuriate you, and hopefully it will show you what I have been saying for awhile... McCain could beat Obama.

And we need a democrat in there... period.

K McKiernan said...

And as far as Late Term abortion... Stella, that is so disheartening to hear that he would pander on such an important issue.

My first child had a horrible abnormality and I was one of those women who had to face late term abortion--I found out at 35 weeks I had toxemia and that my child through a late ultrasound, had alobar holoproscencephaly. At the time (1995) there was only one doctor in the entire USA who would even do a 35 week abortion, and that was Tiller in Kansas.

To say the least, Tiller and staff, and patients endure numerous death threats and to travel there and procure an abortion was beyond the finances or emotional strength I could muster. Moreover, with my increasingly failing health, my doctors finally agreed to induce my labor (legally could do so once I was sick enough and my life was endangered).

I was in labor for more than 24 hours and Connor died inside me 15 minutes before finally being born.

The point to this story is... no one had any idea the torment I went through learning a deeply desired child virtually had no brain and was not ever going to really live. The agony I felt as I was bedridden and my child kicked and twirled because his brain stem allowed him to do so cannot be described.

Late term abortion is rare, making up a fraction of a % of all abortions. And, women who face late abortions are desperate women who would do anything if they had been dealt a different hand.

If what you said about Obama is true, Stella, and I have no reason to doubt you... shame on him. A woman's state of mind is something he should ponder a little more deeply if he wants to govern over a population which is more than 50% female.

Randal Graves said...

Oh, you chicks always whinin' about something.

What's frustrating for me, and a lot of us I think, is that Obama, though not McCain, is still not as far left as we are on all kinds of goodies.

I know some were bitching about those who chided him for the FISA crap. "He can't fix it all by himself!" That wasn't it, but the fact that he sounds exactly like every other Democrat (save a few like my man Dennis) on so many issues. Hell, George W. Bush has a higher approval rating than Congress. What does THAT say?

Utah Savage said...

So, what are you going to do? Stay home, not vote? Write in Dennis. I love Dennis too. But he's not on the ticket. We have an alternative to McCain. Let's hold our fire and give the man a chance. He's smart, he'll get it right, eventually. He isn't bush, he isn't McCain.

Beach Bum said...

As Utah wrote Obama has to get elected first before anything else takes place. Right now I can assure you that I know scores of right-wingnuts that think Obama is the anti-Christ. I'm not happy at all with FISA but when you have literally legions of swiftboaters reeving their motors about to go after Obama I don't feel too awful about cutting him some slack.
As far as the PUMA's, K mckiernan pointed out. Go ahead and vote for McCain, I dare you. But when McCain starts letting the missiles fly and they start talking about bringing about the draft, which is coming down the pipeline if he gets elected I'll be laughing my ass off and volunteering for the draft board since I'm a retired army fart.

In a case of full disclosure I have to write and say my wife is a PUMA who swears she will not vote for Obama.

Mauigirl said...

Utah, I feel the same way about paying Hillary's debts. And I also agree with your point in the comments that before Obama can do anything he has to get elected. And I think he may be one of the smarter campaigners the Democrats have had in a long time - so hopefully he knows what he's doing in his most recent stances.

anita said...

The reality (in my mind at least ... which is questionable i admit), is that Obama always, always has had a middle to right-of-center bent on a number issues. In the bizarre hoopla of it all (i.e., the Primary to End All Primaries), that reality has gotten lost in the noise, including the noise created by the Republicans that he was THE MOST liberal, which is so ridiculous it's funny, yet it's not funny because ultimately it will make us all cry.

Mary Ellen said...

Obama has no record on womens rights. In fact, it was discovered recently that he paid the women who worked on his campaign less than the men who were doing equal work. That should tell you how much Obama cares about women or their rights.

No one is forcing anyone to retire Hillary's debt. If you choose not to, that's fine, you just have to specify that when making your donation.

Also, all this backtracking Obama has done since he thought he secured the nomination is exactly where he will stay if he is elected President. He made it very clear this week during a speech where he claims he really hasn't moved to the center, you guys just weren't listening to him! He just stabbed every one who voted for him in the primary in the back because he thinks you have nowhere else to go. Nice guy, eh?

Think about it....

...he said he has not changed positions, you just weren't listening. Do the words "bamboozle and hoodwink" sound familiar?

Stella, you say that you want to see if Obama "behaves" himself over the next month. How much worse does he have to get? Isn't that like saying if your teenager is caught drunk driving, smashes the front end of the car, fails all his classes, you'll decide at the end of the month if you'll suspend his driving privileges. What does Obama have to do to prove to you that he is not the man he made you think he is.

If Obama is going to continue to change his colors like a chameleon with every election, first the primary, then when he has secured the nomination, and then when he is President, how will you know which color he truly is?

Look very closely at his voting record in Illinois. Not what HE says his voting record is, but the real record. Then you will see how far to the right he really is.

Mary Ellen said...

Oh, I also forgot to add FAITH BASED INITIATIVES to my list on the comment above. I'm sure there are more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

I also forgot to add...there is something you can do instead of allowing Obama to have this nomination handed to him, call Howard Dean or write to the DNC and tell him that you expect to see Hillary's name on the ballot so the Super Delegates could exercise their right to vote. You could also write to the Super Delegates and if you have changed your mind on Obama, let them know and let them know why. could just not vote for President, and vote down the rest of the ticket. Just a thought...

Mary Ellen said...

beach bum-

But when McCain starts letting the missiles fly and they start talking about bringing about the draft, which is coming down the pipeline if he gets elected I'll be laughing my ass off and volunteering for the draft board since I'm a retired army fart.

I hear this threat every election, the next Republican is going to re institute the draft. What makes you so sure that Obama wouldn't do the same? He seems to be happy with leaving our troops in Iraq for awhile, so what's to stop him from wanting to go ahead with a draft? That threat can go both ways. It doesn't matter if Obama says that he won't do that, he goes back on his word all the time.

Personally, I'm not thrilled with the idea of my tax money going to churches like Trinity in Chicago,or any church for that matter.

Vigilante said...

PUMA's are DINO's, pure and simple. Any one thinking of giving Bush III a pass has no creds and gets only the back of my hand.

Vigilante said...

Lieberman hearts PUMA's.

Vigilante said...

K McKiernan, after that courageous statement, I have to say your credibility with me has quadrupled. You are awesome.

Vigilante said...

But K McKiernan, you're wrong about McCain beating Obama. He can't. Only Obama can beat Obama.

K McKiernan said...

Beach Bum,

I feel for your wife. Have her visit my site, ikonoclast.

There is a part of me that wishes I could just not vote... but I care about a liberal/progressive agenda more than I care about making a point regarding how angry, frustrated, and injured I feel.

But tell her she is NOT alone. My heart is still broken over the person who shoulda been our next leader.

Vigilante said...

Get a life, McK! As Randi Rhodes always says,

During the primaries we fall in love; in the general election campaign, we fall in line.

As I always say,

That's the way it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.

That's the way the game is played. Get in the game.

dguzman said...

I still like Hillary better than Obama. His positions are shifting faster than I keep up with, and that troubles me. Still--anyone but McFossil.

I do agree with you, however, that Obama should not pay Hillary's debt. It's her own problem, just like all the other former candidates. She will just have to pay it on her own.

Randal Graves said...

I'm going to do what I always end up doing, vote for the clown on the ticket that makes me want to vomit the least and that has an actual chance of winning. Sorry Green Party.

Our entire system being 'broken' isn't the issue. It works just fine for who it's designed to work for. It's simply a stupid fucking system where the majority of the voters are equally stupid.

Utah Savage said...

I keep going back to my original post and...yes...I did say Barack should not be held up for Hillary's debt. The winner does not have to pay the losers debt. WTF happened in the comments thread. Don't mind me, just talk amongst yourselves. I'm glad to see you all here, but it amazes me that the men are the ones who seem to stay on topic. Why the hell is this the case? So, to Beach, Randal and Vigal, thanks for keeping us focused. To K, Stella, Mary Ellen, I think your impassioned responses deserve a post of their own. Just not here.

Anita and Mauigirl--you guys are on topic and on target. Thanks

Mary Ellen said...

Gee Utah, I didn't realize that anyone wasn't allowed to discuss anything more than the narrow topic. I'll keep that in mind and stick to the blogs with a more gracious host than you.

Utah Savage said...

Dear Mary Ellen, I'm sorry if I offended you, but I'm confused about all this indignation and anger. I merely wrote a piece about Hillary's debt not being Barack's problem, nor is it his obligation to select her to be his Veep. I know you are disappointed she didn't win, but the fact is she didn't. If the situation were reversed, she too, as she did in the primary, would be moving to the right. If Obama had ended his bid for the nomination in debt, would that debt be hers to pay? I don't think so. Would their votes on FISA be reversed? You bet they would. I'm sorry you are pissed off at me, but I think you guys should be posting on this topic you feel so passionately about. It's just not what I was talking about.

Mary Ellen, everywhere I go I see your smart, witty, irreverent comments and I do admire and respect you. I don't want to piss you off and drive you away. I'm merely suggesting that you and K, and Stella have an issue I'm not addressing and don't agree with. I think it obviously needs to be addressed in a post of its own. And since, You and Stella, K are the ones with the passion and anger expressed here, it's a topic that needs its own post. But that wasn't my post. Comments threads I see elsewhere usually deal with the topic of the post. I'm new to blogging and so maybe I don't know the etiquette of the comments thread. I do love an impassioned discussion, but I feel harangued on this one. I understand you quit blogging because you felt attacked on your own site. Now I understand what you meant. I don't want to quit blogging. It's been a great outlet for me. But I don't want to argue over and over about how Hillary should be the nominee. She didn't win this one. It's time to move on with rehashing why she should have won, and concentrate on putting a Democrat in the White House.

anita said...

don't quit blogging utah. that will make me cry.


Stella by Starlight said...

I am forced to admit that mary ellen makes a good point, Utah. Commentators are always off-topic on my blog, but the comment threads often create more fascinating dialog than the original post.

My initial comments dealt with the topic at hand, and I find the comment "only the men" stayed on topic sexist and inaccurate. Straying off-topic was non-gender specific. Everyone except maui strayed, but the participants here wove a delightfully insightful thread. For example, K's comment blew me away: her bravery courage and courage awe me. Vig's always on-target political perspective is well stated.

Here's my on-topic perspective to your comment. I throw up a post. People visit and get off-track. New thoughts arise because blogging is a deconstructive process, in that people respond to a post and add new meaning to your original intent. I get to learn something. I am always honored people take the time to visit, whether or not they agree or stay on topic. I've cherished some of the more heated debates.

This is, however, your blog—your creation. Thus, I must respect your desire for what you choose here.

Stella by Starlight said...

May I add that I, too, would cry if you quit blogging? No offense meant, but remember, my motto is "silence=complicity." I am compelled to speak my mind.

Utah Savage said...

My apologies to all. I visit a lot of sites myself as most of you know. I try to pay attention to what you, at your site, are talking about. If I go off topic, I usually say, "off topic" and then say what I what to say, but this felt like a harangue. Again, I apologize to you. I did not mean to be sexist. I have one male friend. It is the women in my life who are most nourishing and supportive in my real off line life. It is usually so in my blogging life as well. But this time it felt like I was visiting someone else's site and walked in on a conversation I had no connection to. It was almost disorienting. I may have to stay out of the political controversy for awhile and post stories or talk about my dog.

My real question on this topic is, do we want a democrat in the White House or not? He may be terribly flawed, but he isn't John McCain. He HAS to run to the right in order to get the cracker, hillbilly, redneck vote in the South and Rustbelt States--he needs some of that religious vote as well. If we want to lose another bid for the Presidency, then lets just throw our votes away and be done with it. If we lose this one, like, NJRR, i'll be packing and moving out of this country as well. I don't want to live in a fascist country.

Unconventional Conventionist said...

Obama. Is. Not. Paying. Clinton's. Campaign. Debt. Period.

All he's done is ask people to help her retire debt. He cannot by law give any money donated to his campaign to ANY OTHER campaign.

Stella by Starlight said...

Unconventional, thank you for your comment. I was a bit disturbed by the content in Utah's post, and you are, of course, right. So many laws have been broken, I get addled keeping track sometimes.

Utah, I know the feeling of "walking into someone's [blog] conversation." I just put my $0.02 in. I'm rude like that. You did generate an excellent thread on this topic. I was uncomfortable, too. Like, "Why is Utah being so testy?" I appreciate your honesty and providing additional context to your comment.

I want a democrat in the White House. And, yes Utah, Obama may be running to the right to get additional votes. I hope that's true, but I don't know. My concern is his current voting record. However, he's not John McCain. I really never felt the 2000 or 2004 elections were the lesser of two evils: there was only one evil and that was Bush.

McCain is ghastly. The PUMA site K mentions deals with angry Clinton voters who are voting McCain is well worth the visit. These are not dems but DINOs who are snide and rude.

My bottom line is vote for Obama. I think Michele will keep him in line. As concerns Hillary's debt, Obama's efforts to enlist others to help her may indicate that he hopes to get her more focused because he's leaning towards her as VP candidate.

I looked up her record: Hillary knows how to play ball: she's pro-environment and pro-choice. And, yes, her advisors should have bit the bullet for the party: they're rich enough not to miss whatever she promised to pay them. They really piss me off, especially McAullif.

I want a female president, but Barbara Boxer is not running. BTW, both Clinton and Obama did not vote on the FISA bill. I find that disturbing.

Ghost Dansing said...

were you looking for this? link

Big Yellow Forehead said...

I have to agree. That rich biotch needs to find a solution. If I wanted to give her money, wouldn't I have done so in the first place? I think Obama is just doing this to appear to care.

DivaJood said...

What Randal said.